health care in America...

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by S.Y.P on November 28, 2008 at 10:46pm

im from the U.K amd people over here underappreciate the national health service. i dunno wat film u watched but imma hazard a guess it was michael moore's film sicko?

people in the UK assume that because we pay taxes which pays for the NHS then the standard of our hospitals shud be as good as in America. They'll complain about long waiting list, the risk of MRSA etc etc but they dont realise how lucky we are.

i read a story a while back about a british guy who was in holiday in turkey and he needed urgent medical attention (cant remember the exact problem). well the turkish hospital said they wanted £2000 up front before he could even enter the hospital. his wife contacted the british embassy who had him helicoptered back to england and treated free of charge. basically they saved his life.

For all every story of sumbody dieing thru neglegence of the NHS theres probably 1000 storys of people who the NHS have saved and yet the media is only interested in the minute cases of NHS fuck ups.

people here are quick to slam the nhs and goverment when they mess up but reluctant to praise them when they do sumthing rite.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kobalos on November 28, 2008 at 11:29pm

Yes, the UK NHS is a great Institution. One of the great social improvements made to the country after the Second World War that should be supported and appreciated by everyone in the UK and an example to other governments that don't have free health care for all.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by CorpseQueen on November 29, 2008 at 12:15am

ive actually been wanting to do alot of research on american health care lately.. i have some serious back problems i desperately need checked out but i have no health insurance. need to find a way around that with our fucked up system..

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sonic Architect on November 29, 2008 at 8:11am

Micheal Moore is a tricky subject. On the one hand it is indeed good that he exposes this stuff and gets people talking about these issues because as mentioned, people do not know. People are unaware how much power pharmaceutical companies (along with others) have in our daily lives.

On the other hand, he is very dishonest in some ways. he uses manipulative editing at times to make things appear a certain way.

Do not get me wrong, I am completely against corporate control and believe people are before profit and anybody on this site that has read any of the heavy discussions would know this. And though I acknowledge that right wing pundits and corporate media distort shit everyday which has led us to this point, I do believe in trying to present the arguments as honestly as possible as to avoid mass scrutinizing by people which has happened to Moore and worked against him a lot.

There is plenty of evidence to support his thoughts and arguments on his topics if people dig for it and really do some hard research. And doing that and taking out the most primitive social criticisms by people who are naive of things will work much further in my opinion, to achieving a better world.

For examples on how Moore distorts his arguments, research his quoting of Efrim Menuck from the Canadian band Godspeed You Black Emperor, when he told Moore of the story of when they got stopped by the FBI as being suspected terrorists on their US tour.

Or look in his second film Bowling For Columbine when he visits a Toronto "Ghetto" and makes it seem like Canada is this great utopia where violence never occurs, gangs are non existent, and people leave their doors unlocked. Toronto has a lot of violence that is gang related and drug related and has some very bad neighborhoods, as do many Canadian cities. They have just as many social problems as the US and though they may have some better ideas on a right path, like universal health care, it is held hostage by capitalism.

Though universal health care is a good idea, it is fundamentally at odds with the capitalist system that only keeps its powers by controlled scarcity, socio-economic divisions, and bullshit supply and demand scams. In this country (The US) which always throws socialism and anything that can be slightly seen as socialist, it gets completely dragged through the mud and that is why I would be very shocked to see some form of universal health care take hold in the US.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Erika Hysterica on November 29, 2008 at 1:09pm

Ok.. first.. you didn't know that they had free healthcare? Do you live in a closet? =P Second.. Free healthcare is great, yeah, but ask most Canadians, they hate it. Long lines at the hospital, and the doctors are usually crap.

Free healthcare means higher taxes and more national debt. It wouldn't work in America, because the majority of Americans are freeloading pieces of crap. Do you really want your taxes going up insanely so you can pay for the healthcare of the loser who doesn't work a single day in his life and scams the system? I don't. I work hard for my money and would like to keep it.

Not only that, but less and less people will become doctors. Doctors in France, the UK, Canada, and Switzerland, another free healthcare nation, get paid less than half of what doctors in America make. Do you think it's fair that they have to get hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for medical school and then not to be able to pay for it? (Besides, do you really want to be like France? I don't.)

Yes, the healthcare system in America is fucked up. But socialism isn't exactly a good thing either. And to back up with Sonic said.. He does twist his stories. I highly doubt that you get a bonus if you deny people. Because if you keep denying people and have NO ONE on your medical then how is the company supposed to run? Ok, we have 1 person that pays us for insurance.. and we have over 1,000 people in our staff. That one person pays about.. $150-$300 a month for insurance, give or take.. a bit.. how are you supposed to pay those 1,000 people with $150-$300 per month PLUS all of the companies bills; electric, rent, taxes, etc. No, that doesn't make sense, does it?

Where did you get the numbers for the finger reattachment anyways? You can go to your local paramedic and get it done for WAY less.. about.. oh I dunno.. $100 maybe? I've sewn closed many gaping wounds, it takes about 10 minutes, 5 if it's small and you've been doing it for a while. Those numbers are ridiculous, and you have no proof, besides a very one-sided movie to back it up.

Here is a hand surgeon's take on Michael Moore's film. I found it quite informative. The average in office procedure without insurance for the reattachment of a fingertip is $1000, very steep, yes, but considering you need to reattach nerves which I'm sure not many people can do, I think it's well priced, even a little bit cheap. http://www.acton.org/commentary/commentary400.php?view=print

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Felix on November 29, 2008 at 6:35pm

im not just trying to look out for myself though. yes i would like to help pay for that guy who is a freeloader because well im a nice guy and if he discovers he has cancer then i would like to help him out. i would like to help out the people who really do need it becuase the world is bullshit.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kobalos on November 29, 2008 at 9:10pm

> "It wouldn't work in America, because the majority of Americans are freeloading pieces of crap. Do you really want your taxes going up insanely so you can pay for the healthcare of the loser who doesn't work a single day in his life and scams the system?"

The point that misses, about taxes, is that the majority pay them. And the majority of the treated will not be limited to the minority of 'freeloaders', because everyone needs healthcare at some point.

The danger with not having a universal health care is when individuals get an illness that is beyond their insurance and job pay. Not everyone gets paid fairly for their job - a lot get overpaid for being specialists - and yet, we need menial workers(or even, just like parents supporting their family) just as much, if not more so, to support society and the vastly higher-paid specialists.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Antikia on November 29, 2008 at 3:52pm

We have free health in Denmark and thank god for that, I wouldn't mind paying 10% higher taxes than we already do just to keep our health care system as it is. I think this clearly shows just how fucked up capitalism is, and that the american way isn't always the right way. The whole liberal thought about keeping all the money you gain and having to pay for EVERYTHING is wrong, just look at how many poor people there are in America, they are people who can't survive in a 'work or die' system like that, and it's not fair practically leaving them to die because of that.

"Do you think it's fair that they have to get hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for medical school"

I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Denmark you have no reason not to become a doctor, it's as free as any other education we have here, I just can't see the logic in making people pay for their education, who would want to take an education then, and an expensive one even? :/ We pay for this through our taxes, that way the poor people don't have to be trapped in their crappy economical(?) situation forever because they can't afford to take an education. What do poor people do in America, like really? How do they afford an education? One of my best friends is pretty poor and he's going to be a marine biologist(?) and make good $$$ now he wouldn't be able to do that in America, but he COULD keep most of the pathetic pay he gets, and who wouldn't prefer that over a good education and free health care system? :)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Erika Hysterica on November 30, 2008 at 9:55am

My taxes are already high enough. I get a gross pay of $800 every two weeks.. and I end up walking away with $500. It's fucking ridiculous. People need to man up and get their own insurance. I think that universal healthcare for children without insurance is acceptable, but for the grown man who was a loser in high school and didn't want to go to classes and then grew up and realized he did something really dumb.. Well too bad. I went to all my classes, I worked my ass off, and I don't need to pay for you.

"The whole liberal thought about keeping all the money you gain and having to pay for EVERYTHING is wrong, just look at how many poor people there are in America, they are people who can't survive in a 'work or die' system like that, and it's not fair practically leaving them to die because of that."

First off, that shows just how little you know about political points of view. The "liberal" point of view is to give to the poor from the rich. The "conservative" point of view is to keep the money you make. I'm not pushing myself through college, keeping a 4.0 GPA and getting into the best medical school so I can help pay for the loser who got drunk every night of high school and barely graduated and then never went to college. Life is not fair.

"I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Denmark you have no reason not to become a doctor, it's as free as any other education we have here, I just can't see the logic in making people pay for their education, who would want to take an education then, and an expensive one even? :/ We pay for this through our taxes, that way the poor people don't have to be trapped in their crappy economical(?) situation forever because they can't afford to take an education. What do poor people do in America, like really? How do they afford an education? One of my best friends is pretty poor and he's going to be a marine biologist(?) and make good $$$ now he wouldn't be able to do that in America, but he COULD keep most of the pathetic pay he gets, and who wouldn't prefer that over a good education and free health care system? :)"

In America, public schooling is paid through our taxes. College, is not. So you are trying to say that we should have to pay the anywhere from $20,000-$40,000 a year college fee for EVERY SINGLE STUDENT?!? Do you realize the population difference between the United States and Denmark? It's ridiculous. 27% of Americans 22 and older have a college degree. Yes, it's low, but considering our population it isn't so bad. There are 301,139,947 people living in America based on a census done in 2007. However, that doesn't count the last year, and the increasing number of immigrants who have naturalized children. 94% of high school graduates go on to college. 94%. 3.2 MILLION people graduated from high school last year. 94% of 3.2 million is 3,008,000. So over 3 million NEW students attend college each year. CNN reports that the average college tuition costs $30,367 with all fees, room and board and the likes. So.. Can you multiply 3,008,000 by $30,367? That number is astronomically high.The federal government does it's part by giving grants and scholarships to the children who have families who make under $100,000 per year. They're doing enough.

Poor people in America usually either go to college, or not. One of my good friends has her entire college ride paid for because her father is dead, her mother is a mental patient, and her aunt and uncle, who she lives with, make under $30,000 per year. The government helps those in need, so don't even start to say he doesn't.

And in America, Marine Biologists are paid at the most $74,968 on average. That's with 10-19 years of experience. This data is based on payscale.com, a very trusted website that analyzes data from different jobs and spits out very accurate information.

"im not just trying to look out for myself though. yes i would like to help pay for that guy who is a freeloader because well im a nice guy and if he discovers he has cancer then i would like to help him out. i would like to help out the people who really do need it becuase the world is bullshit."

Well you, my friend, are a very unique individual. As I see the who is a freeloader should just go to hell. If he discovers he has cancer.. Well, that's called karma. You feel like scamming the system your whole life? Well fuck you buddy. And don't even go on about me being insensitive to cancer patients, I had leukemia as a young child. I know what it's like.

"And keep in mind, someday someone you love, or even yourself will get terribly ill (just stating facts, not wishing it, that'd be evil) and maybe their insurance won't cover the procedure they need, or maybe their job won't provide insurance, at that point you'd be praying to every god, goddess, whatever ever invented by man that a miracle will occur and they'll be able to get said procedure. If America had national health insurance, you wouldn't have to worry about them, now would you? They would get the help they need."

My insurance doesn't cover my once monthly dialysis treatment which is necessary for me to live. And my insurance is provided by New York State, because my father works for it. It's one of the best insurance offers in my state. But the simple truth is, keeping up with modern science is expensive. My dialysis costs about $20,000 per month. But combined with the medication and intense operations I undergo I am starting to be removed from it. My kidneys haven't failed yet, and hopefully they won't. But that's life.

The wait lists in Canadian healthcare is ridiculous. You are put on a waiting list when you get to the hospital. Either urgent or not. Urgent could be.. you are suffering from internal bleeding, or you have a broken arm. Non urgent could be.. we don't know what you have, but the symptoms don't seem that serious. Well, you might have a staph infection, which can kill in days if not treated. And yes, some people have to wait that long.

My uncle is a Canadian citizen living in the US, and he says the best thing about the US is the healthcare. People come from all over the world so they can have the best treatment and the best doctors. People don't go to Canada or France to go see doctors, do they? It's a simple fact that our healthcare system is the best for our country. If you think it's so terrible then try to change it. But the majority of the working class are going to say.. "Fuck you dude, I need every penny I can get." Especially in this economy. If my taxes were any higher I'd barely be able to live. And it's already that way for a lot of Americans now. So you want to make them pay more for a faulty healthcare system? Ridiculous.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Antikia on November 30, 2008 at 4:29pm

Funny thing is, if you add it all up, and I mean ALL the stuff you have to pay for in the US, the price is actually the same as paying thru taxes like we do, only in Denmark we also help the poor people and the people who can't afford your insanely expensive insurances :)

Wow, what do you pay THAT much for? o_o normal taxes aren't that high here.

The point is, you're trying to be an ass to the people who wanna leech on the system, which I understand, but aaaaall the smart people who got good grades i high school just can't use those grades to pay for further education get it? And I KNOW this for a fact, most people who grow up poor (and I mean POOR) stay poor, just look at how many homeless people you have there, can they afford an education? Think not.

"The "liberal" point of view is to give to the poor from the rich."

Nonetheless, this is NOT what the "land of the free" is doing, and I doubt that's as liberal as you're making it, more like Robin Hood. Besides, none of the liberal organisations or parties that I know of has ever fought for that cause, actually it's the other way around.

"So you are trying to say that we should have to pay the anywhere from $20,000-$40,000 a year college fee for EVERY SINGLE STUDENT?!?"

You don't get it, EVERYBODY pays for education, so if you're taking an education you're only paying for yourself. And the amount of people is irrelevant since everybody pays no matter how many there are.

"The government helps those in need, so don't even start to say he doesn't."

Oh please, naming one situation where the government didn't leave someone do die in their trailerpark home doesn't really count as an argument. And I know they don't help EVERYONE, but again, your standards of free help are so much different from here. Do you have any statistics do support your idea of free help to all of those who needs it? I'm having a really hard time believing this, since soo many people are poor, homeless and not to mention not registered anywhere.

"And in America, Marine Biologists are paid at the most $74,968 on average. That's with 10-19 years of experience. This data is based on payscale.com, a very trusted website that analyzes data from different jobs and spits out very accurate information."

And that's relevant because? Here we're in big need of them, and anything else concerning biology/math/physics(?) and there a much higer percentage of them that get a wellpaid job right after they finish. He could choose any other job he wanted, they're all free

"My dialysis costs about $20,000 per month."

You must really believe in your healthcare system since you don't wanna have that done for free, I just hope your hospitals are awesome since they're soo expensive, we specialize in a lot of areas in Denmark but we're in need of doctors so people from all over the world are flocking to Denmark to get an education and job here, works just fine. My grandma just had some huge operations done, she's a pensionist(?) so thers no way she could afford that, it's estimated to cost about $100.000 so she's pretty glad that was free.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Erika Hysterica on November 30, 2008 at 7:44pm

Dude, as a future doctor the last thing I want is to have socialized healthcare. It would not only hurt the industry, but it would hurt the people.

The taxes are high because we have social security, and thousands and thousands of people on welfare that don't need to be. This is America, land of the freeloaders.

Are you kidding me about the liberalness of that statement? Look up American partylines and you will have a single idea as to what I'm talking about.

No, not everybody pays for education. There are thousands of Americans who do not pay taxes because they have defaulted, not to mention the children in that number, and the people who live on the streets, such as the homeless.

I never said free help. What I meant by that statement was that the government gives free money to the people who can't afford college. And yes, I know what the hell I'm talking about because I'm going through the process of getting government loans and grants. There's a certain point where if your family makes over $50,000 per year they cut you off, but if you file for more they'll almost pay for your entire schooling. I dare you to look it up on any government loan website. Give FAFSA or collegeboard.com a try.

That's relevant because you said your friend won't make any money in America at that job. And that's absolutely insane. What you're forgetting to factor in is the country as a whole. Yes, you might get paid more there, but does it cost more to live there? Because there are places here where you can buy a house that might cost $800,000 somewhere else for $200,000 just because of the location. Not to mention the bills and necessities.

Yeah, I believe in my healthcare system. I don't want my dialysis for free. My doctor has been working his ass off for almost 18 years now to keep me healthy and he's been doing a damn good job at it. If he get's $100,000 for what he's doing then he deserves it. He's the only reason I'm still alive, and I'd pay any amount of money to keep it that way.

• ▶ Reply